Poll: Are you okay with these rule changes?
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[5] Rules Revison [Powergaming Rules]
#1
The staff have been working long and hard with this rule revision. It is a full overhaul of the rules to fill in gaps that have popped up over time. This is generally how rules progress. Someone does something, staff need to figure a solution and new rule or policy, repeat again. In the end one ends up with more fleshed out rules.

We're now more or less done for this time, but this is where YOU come in, as a player. Since this is going to be us going through all the rules you will all have a say in this. This is important. If you have suggestions or ideas it is time to present them when this revision goes on. Decisions are final. We'll be going through the different types of rules one by one. The rules to go through are (so much work to do):

General Rules
Chat Rules
Forum Rules
Metagaming Rules
Powergaming Rules
Building Rules
IC Death Rules
Stealing Rules
Town/Guild/Clan/Etc Rules
In-Game and In-Character Policies
Activity Policies


A poll will be posted in each thread for simple replies if all you got to say is "okay". It will also work as deadline for each issue.


____________________________________________________________

SUGGESTION:

POWERGAMING RULES

1. Do not powergame.
Powergaming is the act of forcing IC actions or events upon other characters, such as injury, death, theft, breaking and entering, or damage to property.

2. Do not play an overpowered character.
This occurs when a character never gets injured in a fight, they always get away no matter circumstances, are able to take on multiple opponents and still win without much harm, or conveniently solve a complex puzzle or equation without any real struggle.
#2
I think there’s some revision needed around combat rules and their regard to powergaming. In the past there’ve been instances with players engaging in conflict and leaning too heavily upon our rule that it’s always a player’s discretion as to whether their character is injured or harmed. Consequently, I think more strict rules that levvies that ability a bit more away from players in certain situations.

What this would mean is that any character that is partaking in combat roleplay at least caused at least partially of their own volition should expect their character to be injured or harmed during said roleplay. Far too often it’s the case in which a player enters their character into combat roleplay willfully and then proceeds to stretch the boundaries of realism or more aptly “What they can get away with,”. A character that enters combat willingly should suffer consequence for it - exactly in the same vein as the clause covering IC Death in which a character that kills another character automatically opens up permissions to be killed themselves. This means any character that willingly participates combat, engenders violence (Such as specifically provoking combat or begatting it in a violent crime that isn’t specifically considered ‘combat roleplay’) should have one foot in the grave (or medical clinic, more aptly) when it comes to combat permissioning.

Keeping that in mind, the rule change I would like to propose is intended to have no effect on characters that are being thrust into hostile situations against their intentions. They would still maintain all rights to deny injury to their character as reasonable.

With this all being explained, I’d like to propose we add a rule as follows:

Quote:3. Players that willingly engage their characters into violence-oriented roleplay and refuse to allow injury to their characters will be considered to be powergaming.
Any character that is willingly engaging in violence in a current conflict or relevant one has permissions for injury opened on them. The character may still struggle or defend themselves and avoid injury within reason, but the right to deny injury is no longer forthright. Staff are the final deciders on what is reasonable.

It might be believed that this rule is similar to rule number two, or even the same, so that the addition of both would be redundant. I disagree, as it is not. There are many situations where the right to deny injury is abused without breaking the second rule. I give you the example of the archer, which is most likely hurt the most by this abuse.

To begin with, I should state that a trained archer utilizing the heaviest of warbows is stated in historical record to maintain a firing rate of a wopping six or seven arrows per minute. Granted, this is with bows that are meant to punch through wrought iron plate from distances over 200 meters, but they’re the most extreme example in the spectrum.

Taking a lower draw weight of hunting bow, an archer can realistically expect -- in the heat of full on close quarters combat (Where virtually all of combat in Mesalia takes place) an archer can expect to loose an arrow roughly every 3-5 seconds.

Now there tends to be an occurrence in roleplay that players want their characters to at least put up a fight in a battle. Bare minimum - that’s what they want to see most of the time. This is an incredibly unfortunate thing for an archer when combined with a player’s right to deny injury to their characters. This is because an archer can loose a single arrow, and then when the other character’s player denies the injury so that their character can at least ‘get a few swings in before they get injured’ (most commonly in the form of ‘moving’ just before or after it’s released, that archer is royally fucked.

The slow attack rate of their weapon combined with the other roleplayer’s wish to “put up a fight” means that the first shot from their bow (which is almost invariably made to miss) is both crucial to their survival and their ability to be viable at all in a combat situation, as after missing that first shot in the close ranges that mesalia’s combat takes place in, a sword wielder or any melee weapon user has full ability to attack, injure, disrupt their bow or anything else under the sun.

It’s for this reason that playing an archer in a character versus character conflict is just bending over and asking for it with things as they are now, even if you're roleplaying with very experienced and competent roleplayers. This is because archers need that first shot, and having your character escape from that first shot isn't really playing an overpowered character -- it's denying one injury. There are subpar solutions for the archer, granted. They can take up a secondary combat skill with a melee weapon that can more readily satisfy another roleplayer’s desire for their character to be ‘putting up a fight’ or engaged in dramatic action, but this puts them at an acute disadvantage as the possible skills they have available at their character’s age is divvied up between archery and another weapon that likely isn’t as trained or as effective as a bow or conventional sword, such as a shortsword or dagger.

But due to the right to deny injury being universal, archers will continue to be abused in combat roleplay. Being forced to miss shots at distances of ten or twenty meters against a target that is stationary at the time of the arrow being released, and then having no recourse when the unscathed opponent rushes forwards to attack.

Granted, this may be a ‘small’ change in rules, but it’s one that is, in my mind completely necessary for healthy combat roleplay.

Combat roleplayers should find consequence for putting their characters in the situations they’re in -- and combat must be played out more realistically for it to be fair to the characters themselves. Take for instance Zarkaylia the character. A master of swordsmanship. A literal master in that there is no one else in the world who can be said to be of greater skill than her - only comparable, as two masters fighting against each other are so skilled that differences in skill become negligible. Yet in encounters against other characters she’s often wounded by characters of much, much less skill than her. This is in part due to her roleplayer’s wish to be fair to other characters and their players, but I would venture so far to guess that in some circumstances it’s probably also due to other roleplayers abusing their right to deny injury against an opponent so titanic in measure.

Give it some thought. Maybe post what you think, I’m curious.
#3
Well, first of all I'll thank you for the acknowledgement that I at least do something right. xP

Secondly the TL;DR of this post is: I hear you, we can reword some things, but I of all people with all my combat RP-ing don't fully agree with the suggestion.

And here's why in case anyone would bother reading:

While you're very much correct that I do my best to be fair, luckily the last bit is on my end not at all a common problem. I think I've only been outright denied in a way I found completely unreasonable once during almost a full past two years (about the time rule 2 have been around). Admittedly we got much better combat-roleplay nowadays than in the past.

And it is better in the way that the rules are followed as they are and thus the rule you're suggesting is already in use and have been so for a long time. It might not seem like it, but if you spell out rule 1 and 2 in one, you get your suggested rule 3. Basically;

Don't powergame = don't force injuries on anyone, and...
Don't play OP characters = ...don't bend realism or otherwise in combat roleplay in order to avoid injury (yes it is a part of this rule).

And anyone violating either of above have faced concequences accordingly and the roleplay have been adjusted accordingly.

Good combat roleplay is a very delicate balancing act between the already excisting rules. For the sake of everyone's fun you just DON'T force someone to take, haha, an arrow to the knee and declare their character crippled. That'd be powergaming. At same time, that means that if you fire towards said knee you gotta expect to, and if you really know what you're doing, /offer/ it to be a miss while your opponent also may /offer/ it to have grased the leg. Or maybe the player would love to play out a crippled character, who knows, and takes a full hit! Or maybe you just bloody aim someplace else.

Combat roleplay is 100% a game of give and take within rules, boundaries and reason. That is what good combat roleplay is, it is what the rules already stated want and demand from you without wording too much limits due to the complex nature and varying scenarios that excist, and it's what staff have been regulating ever since the second rule came into power.

Well, alright, so why not spell it out like you suggest then if it's already there?

Quote:violence-oriented roleplay
This is too vaguely worded. Violence-oriented roleplay might be other types of conflicts as well and I fear this wording will just cause confusion and fear among new arrivals due to simply being so vague, yet not real vague. They don't know exactly what they're not allowed to do and/or will simply keep away from anything that might contain violence out of fear to be run over and banned.

Quote:refuse to allow injury to their characters will be considered to be powergaming.
This is a repeat of rule two and feels rather reduntant.

Quote:Any character that is willingly engaging in violence in a current conflict or relevant one has permissions for injury opened on them.
This part is instead too strictly worded and yet another scare and contradicts rule 1 in the way it's worded. Powergaming is not allowed, yet in battle anyone can force an injury of any level on you? What about the killing rules? This one scare me the most through the conflicts it's bound to trigger though, combat-RP is complex and not a straight out "now you're getting stabbed because your char is not as good as mine and I have auto-permission to injure you in any degree".

So yeah, I'd say the better idea might be to simply reword this part of rule 2 to be more clear if people don't already get it (which the past few years honestly would suggest that people do, it's more that combat-RP is hard that may be the problem):

Quote:2. Do not play an overpowered character.
This occurs when a character never gets injured in a fight
#4
I don't really know Zark. I might say that your experience with combat roleplay might be a little.. Tilted. Not by anything you're doing wrong of course or anything.. But let's just say that when someone's combat RPing with the admin of the server involved it kind of beckons for them to be on their best behavior. Since my time as a player here I've witnessed or experienced these kinds of problems three times in the past, and have had second hand accounts of at least two more. One of the second hand accounts I believe was punished, but none of the occasions I was present as a witness or participating in the roleplay.

That number, five, might not seem like a whole lot at first... But bear in mind how /rare/ character against character combat is in the server and you'll quickly realize that that is a /lot/ of tomfoolery. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic I won't diverge into explaining or giving details on those situations, but you can have them should you be so inclined.

Instead I'll get back on topic and address some of the things you've said.

Part of the thing is that you said you shouldn't force characters to take an arrow in the knee and become crippled. (I agree with that, of course.)

Long lasting or permanent damage isn't the kind of injury I was alluding to - I meant more temporary wounds that more or less only exist to determine the outcome of a fight.

Balance in combat roleplay is a very, very delicate thing. And as I said, nine times out of ten if an archer attempts to shoot a sword wielding character, the sword wielding character will make it a grazing wound or a miss and proceed to run over the archer because of the bow's slow firing rate and uselessness as a melee weapon. (This is why I said the first shot for an archer is crucial to their usefulness in a one on one combat roleplay, and why they're the most hurt by the current situation of things. Believe me, I've been in that situation.)

The sword wielder will and does do this without even thinking about it, as it's 'fair' in a sword against sword roleplay to avoid the first strike or what have you so that your character can retaliate and you'll have an 'even' fight.


Now there's a second part I have to address which was the wording of the proposed rule... Yeah, I kind of messed that up. So instead of trying to 'fix' it to read better, I'll just explain my background on what I was trying to do with the rule.

"3. Players that willingly engage their characters into violence-oriented roleplay [...]"

Yeah, that was a little vague. Essentially I was trying to seperate this rule into two demographics. In demographic (A), you have all your warriors, villains, rapists, ect. These characters are specifically designed to, and engage in combat on an every day basis. It's for this reason that they should be giving more fairness (not less) to those they're combat roleplaying with. However, also demographic A is meant to cover those who are not trained combatants willingly participating in a violent conflict as well. Such as a tailor trying to murder a bartender. The tailor falls into demographic A because he's instigating violence (And thus should be held to go about it fairly, because he's the one starting it.)

Then you have demographic B, which is any character /NOT/ willingly engaging in combat, who retain all their rights to deny injury forthright. The bartender having murder attempted upon them by the tailor falls into this catagory. That violence is being brought onto him/her, and they may very well be uncomfortable with the situation as a player, or simply not want their character to be murdered. That's why we have the right to deny injury and rules against forcing it -- This I am intimately aware of, which is why I made an attempt to preserve the right to deny injury for those not who are not setting out to combat roleplay with their characters.

"Any character that is willingly engaging in violence in a current conflict or relevant one has permissions for injury opened on them. [...]"

This is /not/ meant to allow for auto-hitting where powergaming is permitted. Take our new IC Death rules for a comparison on this -- as you alluded to the killing rules. Any character that kills another has permissions for their own character to be killed opened on them. That is as I understand it, a current rule. Not exactly a perfect rule, I am aware.

What that phrase I was including was /meant/ to do, was to remove the right to deny injury for any reason from the player (Which still exists in combat roleplay. Should a roleplayer in combat /not/ wish to get stabbed, all they really have to do is say so in OOC and it's irrevocable law at that point, if I'm not mistaken. Because the right to deny injury is and always has been forthright in Mesalia. Take when Mordecai was killed for a good example. He was shot in back with an arrow. ICly, anything that I did to avoid that injury would have been powergaming /something/. If Mordecai moved or dodged the arrow, that most definitely would be power gaming. If I stated the arrow /grazed/ Mordecai? That's -STILL- power gaming, as Tig's character was an excellent archer and realistically would not have missed at that distance at a stationary target -- And beyond that, to tell Tig that his character's aim was off just because /I/ say so is definitely power gaming.

Yet all I would have had to do to escape that death is OOCly say "You can't kill my character. No."

As I was told many times on the subject. Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree with being able to do that -- As I already illustrated with the tailor/bartender scenario above. Player's characters shouldn't be taken from them against their will.

But simply retconning it, or forcing Tig's character to miss or give only a grazing wound is a little powergamey. Mordecai was a combat character. He was built for combat so by all rights, I as a player should expect for him to get wounded in combat, period. And I shouldn't be trying to escape that. Mordecai /could/ have been hit from behind with an arrow that missed his vital organs but still put him in the clinic and took him out of that situation and that would have been fair as sunshine as far as I was concerned. He was shot in the back from less than ten paces, and anyone in that situation /shouldn't/ be trying to worm out of that situation as it's only realistic.


Yet people /do/ try to worm out of these situations. All the time. Because they have the right to. Any injury they don't agree with they have the right to deny (on grounds of realism or not) partially due to the view that combat roleplay is ALWAYS equal give and equal take. It's not. It should be the amount of give and take that is reasonable and applicable to the situation if it's ever going to be fair to the realism of the characters themselves. The fact is, a master swordsman should probably take a lot more ground than they give to a novice swordsman. That's unequal give and take, and it's correct. A novice swordsman attacking a master swordsman from behind and by surprise however - it's the situation reversed. The master swordsman shouldn't avoid that injury -- nor should they have any right to deny it. It'd just be OOC meddling with roleplay (or a fair bit of powergaming).

A tailor being attacked from behind however, should keep every right to say that they don't like the situation and refuse to allow that kind of injury to their character. Why? Because that player isn't involving themselves in combat roleplay willingly, and being involved unwillingly is stressful, taxing and unfair.


That's all I've essentially tried to set up with this rule. The wording might not be there, but that's all my reasoning above.
  


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[5] Rules Revison [Powergaming Rules]00